Grabbing bags is an utterly reflexive move, isn't it? It's not a conscious decision to disobey the rules. It's our "stuff." We're trained to guard our stuff, especially while traveling. I'm quite positive that I'd leave my stuff behind but I can't be sure unless I'm placed in that horrific position. I hope I'm never in that position.
Appreciate your honest reflection, Sherman. You're absolutely right: it’s not always disobedience, it’s human nature under stress. But in aviation, even split-second reflexes have consequences. Glad to hear you're thinking about it from both sides. That’s where real awareness starts.
In a world where airlines don’t give a shit about lost bags in regular operations, airlines are training people to expect they will lose their baggage in an emergency.
Root cause solution?
Six sigma operation protocols for lost baggage.
Prove to me you give a shit in daily operations and then I will TRUST you to get my bags back to me after an emergency.
You are never, ever, getting a bag back from a plane that experienced an emergency that required evacuation. That plane is going to be examined by a handful of federal agencies, one at a time, over years. We all know it, and we act accordingly.
I’m going to assume you’re a guy, because that would explain why you’d think I’m talking about my computer instead of the things you’d have in your pocket if you’re male: passport, license, cash, credit cards… Everything on my computer is easily replaced. Ditto my phone. But the government only allows me one copy of my IDs.
Ah Denver…our airport and the one we have a love/hate relationship with. Gateway to the West. Not shocked. Honestly, there is a bell curve and flight attendants should be trained specifically to deal with those on the left of it. 🫣🤷🏻♀️. Glad everyone was ok. We flew out of there Saturday morning…(not relevant, but thought I’d add lol)
Thanks, Jen! Yep DEN is definitely one of those airports pilots love for the scenery. You're spot on: the passenger bell curve is real and crew members are increasingly being asked to manage not just safety but psychology and social media instincts all at once. Glad you got out of there Saturday just before the chaos! ✈️ Let’s hope this incident sparks more than headlines and actually leads to change.
Like many things, this appears to be a matter of “monkey see, monkey do”. We take our cues for proper behavior from each other. Everybody’s ignoring the attendants and grabbing their personal items? I guess that’s what we should do as well; it seems to be permitted - or so the thought goes. Most of those passengers probably thought they were doing nothing wrong or had tacit permission. Which is not to excuse their behavior. It’s more a lament of how our social instincts can lead us astray.
I believe it was Japan Airlines that has a safety video that shows what happens when you don’t follow the rules, including what happens if you try to bring things with you during an emergency. As I recall, the video was amusing and interesting enough so that people would actually watch it and yet seriously enough showed the crucially important details.
I love this message. But, to play devils advocate, I question the locked bin approach. As a behavioral economist, I am used to looking at how systems create certain responses. If people are desperate to get their bag, a locked bin could cause more harm than good. As an example, people could wrestle with the lock, blocking escape routes.
I don’t have a better solution, but just thought to add to the dialogue and keep the gears turning.
I travel often and have a few thoughts - take these fwiw.
First, you are fighting human nature as it relates to the carryons. People have valuables in there and assume they will never get them back. These things have become appendages. Yes, your life is more valuable. Good luck trying to get that across. Nevertheless, more education is needed. I have no clue how to do that, but this article is a start. I’m not going lie - I would have likely grabbed my backpack I stow under the seat in front of me. Understanding the danger in that as you described has changed my perspective.
I don’t understand this modern urge to pander. Flight attendants serve a vital function in modern commercial travel, but saying everything is heroic prevents vital conversation and always waters down true heroism. I was in the military, not everyone who serves is “heroic.”
I do like when the captain gets up and addresses the all on board from the front of the aircraft prior to takeoff. I think that’s a good touch in general and gets people’s attention. That could help.
Locking bins seems problematic to me. I guess my initial thought is just clear communication- then communicate, communicate, and communicate some more.
In a disaster scenario, the first step to surviving is recognizing that things have rapidly changed from normal to life or death. Recognizing this shift is much more difficult than most of us assume, which is why when people postulate about how they would respond in situation X, they are making broad assumptions about themselves and how they will respond. In reality, most people have little to no similar experiences and therefore have no idea how they would respond. Our brain's first response in a disaster is disbelief, which often results in a pattern of "normal" behaviors (i.e., plane has stopped, get your sh!t out of the overhead). It's as if the brain is trying to willfully force an alternate reality on the situation (denial). In these situations, our brains do not consider the fact that the airlines treat you like cattle on a daily basis and treat your luggage like inconvenient garbage, that's higher-level cognitive functioning, which does not occur in most brains at these times. Tough, realistic and rigorous training is how humans learn to override these responses. The brain becomes familiar with these types of events and develops alternate sets of response patterns, which is why such training is critical for flight crews. While locking the bins might create a delay in exiting the plane, the delay would most likely be less than a delay associated with getting crap out of the bins. Additionally, there is a good probability that the novel stimulus of locked bins will rouse the brain from its autopilot status and facilitate quicker exits.
Include an announcement about the locking overhead bins in the safety video, with a shot of a passenger getting pushed aside while he/she is trying to unlock the bin...(hey, mess with that bin all you want, I'm outta here!).
Really interesting. I'm a PPL holder who studied all the theory for ATPL but decided not to pursue commercial. From my perspective, one thing stands out - all the training for crew is comprehensive and rigorous. It's kept current, and includes regular rehearsals, refreshers and simulations. However passengers (who significantly outnumber flight crew) get none of that. So in a real emergency, passenger mental state goes to fight-or-flight, rational instructions from a well-trained flight crew get thrown out of the window, and the pre-flight safety briefing is completely forgotten. It seems like that's the case in this incident. I'd argue passengers are just as important as crew when it comes to the safe conclusion of an emergency such as this. I'm wondering out loud what it would take to help passengers really understand how to co-operate in an emergency... is a quick pre-flight safety briefing really enough? Or could passengers be incentivised to take simple, practical evacuation and safety training somehow, before flying?
Brilliantly said and I couldn’t agree more. Your point about the training gap is spot on. Crew members drill these procedures over and over until they’re muscle memory. Passengers? One quick briefing while juggling headphones and pretzels. Maybe it’s time we rethink the pre-flight safety demo as more than a box-ticking exercise. Thanks for contributing such a thoughtful perspective, this is exactly the conversation we need to be having. Thanks St. Jezzer!
I did see one other post about this evacuation (Passenger Shaming's post on Facebook) where they said the same things you did: look at all the people who delayed everyone behind them from getting out while they grabbed their stuff.
I don't think 90 seconds is in any way realistic.
Interesting idea to lock the OH bins in an emergency. I had that thought, too, but I see the other commenter's point that it could make it worse.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Debra! I hadn’t seen the Passenger Shaming post, but it sounds like they’re highlighting the same issue I focused on: how retrieving bags during an evacuation delays everyone and puts lives at risk.
Totally agree, 90 seconds feels more like a regulatory fantasy than a real-world benchmark, especially when fear takes over. And yes, locking the overhead bins sounds tempting, but as others mentioned, it could escalate confusion or even cause passengers to panic more.
Appreciate you engaging with this it's conversations like these that help move us toward safer, smarter solutions.
The airlines got greedy and started charging for bags. TSA agents get greedy and steal valuables. The public reacted by cramming their valuables and their heaviest belongings in the carry on. They are not leaving it behind!!
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let ‘em crash.
Grabbing bags is an utterly reflexive move, isn't it? It's not a conscious decision to disobey the rules. It's our "stuff." We're trained to guard our stuff, especially while traveling. I'm quite positive that I'd leave my stuff behind but I can't be sure unless I'm placed in that horrific position. I hope I'm never in that position.
Appreciate your honest reflection, Sherman. You're absolutely right: it’s not always disobedience, it’s human nature under stress. But in aviation, even split-second reflexes have consequences. Glad to hear you're thinking about it from both sides. That’s where real awareness starts.
Yes, as you note, the training needs to be more specific.
In a world where airlines don’t give a shit about lost bags in regular operations, airlines are training people to expect they will lose their baggage in an emergency.
Root cause solution?
Six sigma operation protocols for lost baggage.
Prove to me you give a shit in daily operations and then I will TRUST you to get my bags back to me after an emergency.
This is a trust issue.
Six sigma is a trust solution.
You are never, ever, getting a bag back from a plane that experienced an emergency that required evacuation. That plane is going to be examined by a handful of federal agencies, one at a time, over years. We all know it, and we act accordingly.
I’m going to assume you’re a guy, because that would explain why you’d think I’m talking about my computer instead of the things you’d have in your pocket if you’re male: passport, license, cash, credit cards… Everything on my computer is easily replaced. Ditto my phone. But the government only allows me one copy of my IDs.
Ah Denver…our airport and the one we have a love/hate relationship with. Gateway to the West. Not shocked. Honestly, there is a bell curve and flight attendants should be trained specifically to deal with those on the left of it. 🫣🤷🏻♀️. Glad everyone was ok. We flew out of there Saturday morning…(not relevant, but thought I’d add lol)
Thanks, Jen! Yep DEN is definitely one of those airports pilots love for the scenery. You're spot on: the passenger bell curve is real and crew members are increasingly being asked to manage not just safety but psychology and social media instincts all at once. Glad you got out of there Saturday just before the chaos! ✈️ Let’s hope this incident sparks more than headlines and actually leads to change.
Like many things, this appears to be a matter of “monkey see, monkey do”. We take our cues for proper behavior from each other. Everybody’s ignoring the attendants and grabbing their personal items? I guess that’s what we should do as well; it seems to be permitted - or so the thought goes. Most of those passengers probably thought they were doing nothing wrong or had tacit permission. Which is not to excuse their behavior. It’s more a lament of how our social instincts can lead us astray.
I believe it was Japan Airlines that has a safety video that shows what happens when you don’t follow the rules, including what happens if you try to bring things with you during an emergency. As I recall, the video was amusing and interesting enough so that people would actually watch it and yet seriously enough showed the crucially important details.
I love this message. But, to play devils advocate, I question the locked bin approach. As a behavioral economist, I am used to looking at how systems create certain responses. If people are desperate to get their bag, a locked bin could cause more harm than good. As an example, people could wrestle with the lock, blocking escape routes.
I don’t have a better solution, but just thought to add to the dialogue and keep the gears turning.
I travel often and have a few thoughts - take these fwiw.
First, you are fighting human nature as it relates to the carryons. People have valuables in there and assume they will never get them back. These things have become appendages. Yes, your life is more valuable. Good luck trying to get that across. Nevertheless, more education is needed. I have no clue how to do that, but this article is a start. I’m not going lie - I would have likely grabbed my backpack I stow under the seat in front of me. Understanding the danger in that as you described has changed my perspective.
I don’t understand this modern urge to pander. Flight attendants serve a vital function in modern commercial travel, but saying everything is heroic prevents vital conversation and always waters down true heroism. I was in the military, not everyone who serves is “heroic.”
I do like when the captain gets up and addresses the all on board from the front of the aircraft prior to takeoff. I think that’s a good touch in general and gets people’s attention. That could help.
Locking bins seems problematic to me. I guess my initial thought is just clear communication- then communicate, communicate, and communicate some more.
In a disaster scenario, the first step to surviving is recognizing that things have rapidly changed from normal to life or death. Recognizing this shift is much more difficult than most of us assume, which is why when people postulate about how they would respond in situation X, they are making broad assumptions about themselves and how they will respond. In reality, most people have little to no similar experiences and therefore have no idea how they would respond. Our brain's first response in a disaster is disbelief, which often results in a pattern of "normal" behaviors (i.e., plane has stopped, get your sh!t out of the overhead). It's as if the brain is trying to willfully force an alternate reality on the situation (denial). In these situations, our brains do not consider the fact that the airlines treat you like cattle on a daily basis and treat your luggage like inconvenient garbage, that's higher-level cognitive functioning, which does not occur in most brains at these times. Tough, realistic and rigorous training is how humans learn to override these responses. The brain becomes familiar with these types of events and develops alternate sets of response patterns, which is why such training is critical for flight crews. While locking the bins might create a delay in exiting the plane, the delay would most likely be less than a delay associated with getting crap out of the bins. Additionally, there is a good probability that the novel stimulus of locked bins will rouse the brain from its autopilot status and facilitate quicker exits.
Include an announcement about the locking overhead bins in the safety video, with a shot of a passenger getting pushed aside while he/she is trying to unlock the bin...(hey, mess with that bin all you want, I'm outta here!).
Really interesting. I'm a PPL holder who studied all the theory for ATPL but decided not to pursue commercial. From my perspective, one thing stands out - all the training for crew is comprehensive and rigorous. It's kept current, and includes regular rehearsals, refreshers and simulations. However passengers (who significantly outnumber flight crew) get none of that. So in a real emergency, passenger mental state goes to fight-or-flight, rational instructions from a well-trained flight crew get thrown out of the window, and the pre-flight safety briefing is completely forgotten. It seems like that's the case in this incident. I'd argue passengers are just as important as crew when it comes to the safe conclusion of an emergency such as this. I'm wondering out loud what it would take to help passengers really understand how to co-operate in an emergency... is a quick pre-flight safety briefing really enough? Or could passengers be incentivised to take simple, practical evacuation and safety training somehow, before flying?
Brilliantly said and I couldn’t agree more. Your point about the training gap is spot on. Crew members drill these procedures over and over until they’re muscle memory. Passengers? One quick briefing while juggling headphones and pretzels. Maybe it’s time we rethink the pre-flight safety demo as more than a box-ticking exercise. Thanks for contributing such a thoughtful perspective, this is exactly the conversation we need to be having. Thanks St. Jezzer!
I did see one other post about this evacuation (Passenger Shaming's post on Facebook) where they said the same things you did: look at all the people who delayed everyone behind them from getting out while they grabbed their stuff.
I don't think 90 seconds is in any way realistic.
Interesting idea to lock the OH bins in an emergency. I had that thought, too, but I see the other commenter's point that it could make it worse.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Debra! I hadn’t seen the Passenger Shaming post, but it sounds like they’re highlighting the same issue I focused on: how retrieving bags during an evacuation delays everyone and puts lives at risk.
Totally agree, 90 seconds feels more like a regulatory fantasy than a real-world benchmark, especially when fear takes over. And yes, locking the overhead bins sounds tempting, but as others mentioned, it could escalate confusion or even cause passengers to panic more.
Appreciate you engaging with this it's conversations like these that help move us toward safer, smarter solutions.
I said that to myself about having emergency locks on the overhead bins, even before I read your suggestions. Stupid people are gonna be stupid.
The airlines got greedy and started charging for bags. TSA agents get greedy and steal valuables. The public reacted by cramming their valuables and their heaviest belongings in the carry on. They are not leaving it behind!!
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let ‘em crash.
Emergency evacuation over wing and forward slides (in front of engines) while engines are still spooling down?